Public Talk 2 Rajghat, India - 07 November 1976

This is the last talk for those who have come here for the camp. We'll go this evening into many things and I am afraid we cannot go into details but we will give a general outline and perhaps some of us can think over it, if you are serious, afterwards.

We have been talking over together what is communication; not only verbal but non-verbal. Communication implies, doesn't it, sharing. Not merely accepting or undertaking a certain series of ideas or sentences, but to communicate implies sharing, partaking, being responsible in that examination, neither agreeing or disagreeing. We talked about the question from childhood being hurt, deeply and the consequences of that is violence, resistance, withdrawal, isolation and all that follows from that hurt. And therefore from that any perception, any action must be distorted. I think that's fairly clear.

And also we talked about fear, whether it's at all possible for human beings to be totally, deeply, radically free of all fear, psychologically. Because fear is a dreadful thing, not only physically it contracts one; but psychologically it acts as a barrier. Again a distorting factor in action. I think we all saw that as much as we could the last time we talked about it.

This evening we are going to talk about several things which is: pleasure, the nature of pleasure, the structure of it. Then what is the whole movement of desire which brings about pleasure and perhaps also fear, and whether there is an ending to sorrow. And what is the relationship between love and sorrow. And perhaps if we have time, we can go into the question of death and meditation. This is what we are going to cover, if we can, rather a large canvas, if we can this evening. All right, sirs.

I think one should understand or rather explore the question of desire which so deeply permeates, deeply rooted in our consciousness. Not only desire for physical necessities, but also psychological demands. So, we have to enquire what is desire, whether if we can understand the nature of it, how it arises, and whether in understanding it, not mentally but having an insight into it, there is never a question of suppressing desire, never a question of completely yielding to desire either, in understanding the nature of it. So we are going to ask from the beginning: what is desire, how it arises, why man and especially the so-called religious people have tried to escape from it, tried to suppress it, tried to transmute it, as they call it, into higher energies of desires and so on. So what is desire which most of us have not only for physical things - desire for food, cloth, shelter, better shelter and so on; but also desire to achieve, to become, to transform ourselves into something better, nobler and all that, the whole movement of desire? Right? You are prepared to face all this with me, this evening?

Desire - please, don't agree or disagree, examine because I am not laying down the law, I am not your guru, you are not my followers. We are thinking over these problems together, as two good friends who are concerned with the world and with themselves and their relationship to the world and so on. This is one of the great problems of human beings, desire, both biological and psychological. So, we are first dealing with psychological desires. The biological desires are fairly simple and clear. But they overlap each other, they are inter-related to each other. The psychological desires may affect physiological desires and the physiological desires may affect the psychological desires. So they are inter-related, always inter-acting together. So it's very important to find out what is desire. Desire - please, examine it with me. Desire is sensation, sensory activity plus thought and that brings about desire and that desire creates the image. Right? Sensation, thought, desire and the image. The sensation is sensory perception, contact, feel, touch, all that. Then thought comes in,: like, dislike, noble, ignoble, wanting more and so on and then there is desire and the image built through desire. I think that's fairly clear if one goes into it. Don't learn it by heart, please, and repeat it to me a little later. But if you could examine it you will see the same thing, it will be yours then, not mine.

Now, the problem is we must have sensation, naturally, otherwise you are dead. All the sensory perception, all the sensory activity must be thoroughly sensitive. That is, to live sensory completely, but when thought interferes with it, then it becomes desire. So the question is: can we perceive, see a mountain, a tree, water, man, woman with all your senses and not allow thought to interfere and therefore the activity of the senses are not fulfilled through desire, image and action? Are we capturing some of this, what we are talking about? You know, it is like this: have you ever looked at the river with all your senses, with your eyes, ears, nerves, you know, the whole sensory organism perceiving something totally and not allowing thought to come in, pervert it, which becomes desire, image and action? I wonder if you understand this. Are we going together in this or not? I must go on.

So the whole problem of discipline disappears. Discipline as it is now understood traditionally is to control, suppress, conform, imitate and so on - both in school, college, and the whole process of life is based on this unfortunate effort to comply, conform, imitate. The word 'discipline' means actually to learn. When you learn, that very act of learning is its own order, creates its own order. So the conformity principle disappears. When there is no interference of thought but the complete observation with all the senses, then there is no conformity because there is no thought creating desire and action. Now, when that is understood really, deeply, then we can proceed to look what is pleasure.

For most of us, pleasure is one of the great principles in our consciousness. Right? In our consciousness there are several active principles, which is fear, pleasure, sorrow with all the complications of sorrow, pleasure and fear and also the hurt from childhood. So these are the content of our consciousness and the content makes up consciousness. So, we have talked about hurt, fear. Now we are talking about pleasure, one of the major principles in man's activity, in his consciousness. Right? So what is pleasure? There is pleasure in achievement, pleasure in physical control, pleasure in having a position, pleasure in power - political, religious, any form of power. Power being leadership, asking people to guide, to be guided and therefore control. All that is a form of pleasure. Pleasure in attachment, pleasure in hate, pleasure in jealousy, otherwise if there was no pleasure in jealousy, you would stop instantly. So what is the nature of pleasure? Why has man pursued through millennia this pleasure principle, not only sexually but other forms of pleasure? Because unless we understand pleasure, I don't think we'll be able to feel or live in that which is called love. So for most of us love has become pleasure. Please, examine it in yourself; not accept what I am saying.

So what is pleasure? What is the cause of pleasure, what gives it a continuity and what makes for the pursuing of it, the beginning of it, the remembrance of it and the continuity of it in the future? Right? Are you following? So what is pleasure? When you go to the temple or go to a guru, there is pleasure-principle involved in it. Right? Don't let's beat round the bush, that is what is involved in it. Which means what? That you really want to continue in a certain form of pleasure. And the movement of pleasure, how does it come into being? You understand? Are we meeting each other? When you see something beautiful, if you have ever seen it, a river, a sunset, a beautiful person, clear-eyed, you know, all the rest of it, a beautiful person. You see great beauty. At the moment of perception there is no pleasure. At the moment, at the second of seeing that river or a beautiful person or the mountain or hearing a song, at the second of perception there is neither pleasure, nothing, there is just perception. Isn't that so? Have you noticed it? Then thought comes and says 'how beautiful that was, how lovely that was, what a great pleasure that gave me'. So thought gives it a continuity: from the remembrance of something in the past as beauty, then thought comes, makes it a memory, then there is the pursuit of that memory, the continuity of that memory wanting more. Right? You follow this? So thought gives a continuity through remembrance to an incident or a happening which brought about a delight, a pleasure.

So there is difference between pleasure, enjoyment and joy. Pleasure, you can invite. You have enjoyed it, you have had it, you have remembered it and you demand more of it. Which is the movement of thought as time and measure - more. Right? When there is enjoyment, you are enjoying something. When thought doesn't interfere, there is no recording of it. I wonder if you have understood it. Right? And joy, you cannot invite. It comes, when you are not wanting it, when you are not concerned about it, there is a certain feeling of great joy: joy, enjoyment and pleasure. So these three are always man's demand. The pleasure, enjoyment of something, and the joy which he has felt and remembers and demands more of it. So that is the movement of thought as time, having had it, which is time, the measure, which is more. So thought is a movement of time and measure. And when there is a perception and not the interference of thought, then there is no problem of a continuity. You've got it? Have you understood something? Now let's proceed.

So, if one has understood that then we can ask: is love pleasure? Is love desire? Can love be cultivated by thought? And as modern civilisation, and perhaps in the ancient civilisations also, love has been related to pleasure. Right? I love my husband, I love my wife, sexual pleasure-principle, comfort, you know all the rest of it. I don't have to go into all the domestic details. So there is that, one has to go into this question whether to find out what is the relationship of love and pleasure. Is there love when there is pleasure? Is there love when there is desire, which is the movement of thought as measure? Is there love when there is sorrow? Right? May I go on? Are we following each other somewhat? You can question me afterwards if there is time. Don't question me, question yourself, it's much simpler and much more direct. Because what is happening in the world, if you have enquired and observed what is actually happening in the world, you will see that Marxism - you know, Marxism - Marxism in all its variety including Mao's variety of Marxism and analysis are the two principal factors operating in the world at the present moment. Marxism with all its varieties and the whole mechanical process of analysis. And these two principles are tremendously active in the world, in the present time and they are destroying love. I don't know if you understand? And is love brought about through analysis or through any form of tyrannical acceptance of any authority? They are questioning all this. You understand? Because the central thing, which is love, both are destroying it: analysis and Marxism, Communism, dictatorship, you know, all that is happening right through the world.

So one has to enquire for oneself is love a thing to be cultivated by thought, thought being remembrance of pleasure, demanding more of it and giving continuity to it. Is love pleasure, is love desire, merely the operation of senses, sexual or otherwise? What is the relationship between love and suffering? And can there be love when there is ambition, greed, competition, imitation and violence? Because these are the principles that are very active in human beings: violence, conformity, ambition, jealousy, greed, the whole human structure, psychological demands. So that is what we are going to enquire. You understand? What is the relationship between suffering and love? And if there is no desire - please, understand, I won't say no desire. If all the senses are alert without the interference of thought, what relationship have the senses, with their tremendous activity, to love? Are we meeting somewhere? Sir, look at a river or anything with all your senses, with your eyes, with all the senses, fully awakened, look at it and the moment thought interferes, which is also sensory activity but it assumes the major activity, when thought does not interfere what takes place? You understand what I am saying? I look at those flowers, not only visually, but smell it, taste it, see the whole beauty of it, because my senses are tremendously awake I see the beauty of it, the fullness and leave it there and not let thought interfere. Is that possible because thought is so quick? You understand? Look: I look at that flower with all my senses, thought comes and says, 'It is not arranged properly. I don't quite like that colour with that colour'. So I have - the senses now have diminished, thought has taken over and the desire is in operation and action according to the image which desire has created. Is it becoming a little too abstract? Is this becoming a little too abstract?

Audience: No.

K: All right. It's up to you. Then what is the relationship between suffering, sorrow, grief and love? With most of us, unfortunately, through life we suffer a great deal both physiologically as well as psychologically. And they react on each other - physiological, psychological, that's obvious, psychosomatic and all that. So why does man tolerate suffering? You understand my question? One can understand physiological suffering. I have got a bad eye, or bad leg and so on, I can tolerate it, not let it interfere with my clarity of perception. Therefore I'll be very watchful that the physical suffering doesn't interfere psychologically, that requires great alertness, watchfulness. So, I am asking: why does man, why has man borne, carried the burden of sorrow, not only the little isolated human being but humanity as a whole. War throughout millennia has brought immense suffering. Poverty, you know, the whole gamut of suffering. Why? Is there no end to it? So what is the relationship of love to a human being, relationship of love for a human being who is suffering? You understand? Psychologically suffering. Or is there no relationship at all? That is, a man, a human being who is tortured psychologically, going through agonies, suspicions, secret desire, depressions, you know what human beings go through, surely there is - to such a person love cannot be, because he is self-centred, his activity is self-centred and so on. Therefore love is not when there is suffering. I wonder if you see this.

So the question arises: can suffering end, psychological suffering? Right? Now, ask that question to yourselves and find out if suffering can end. I lose my son, my death occurs and I suffer; my wife dies and I suffer or my husband runs away with somebody, I suffer; and I suffer because I am a little man and I see great power principle operating in the world, suppressing me, there is no freedom, everybody on top has freedom but down below I have no freedom, and that is suffering also. I can never have a clean bath, clean clothes, that's also suffering. So can suffering end? Because this question must be asked and the answer must be found for it. Because, as we said, the other day, if there is a radical change in one's consciousness, that is the ending of fear, the wiping away of hurts and never hurt again and the understanding of pleasure, not destroying pleasure but seeing the whole nature of pleasure, if there is a radical change also with the ending of sorrow, there is a total revolution in consciousness which will affect the whole of humanity. If you, as a human being, radically, fundamentally undergo psychological revolution because you are humanity - you understand? - then you, as a human being, affect the whole consciousness of the world. Look sirs, it is very simple. The Buddha has affected the consciousness of the world. Right? Jesus, if he existed or not, the priests have made him into something and that has affected the world. The Lenin, Marx, Hitler, every strong person or evil person affects the world. So if you, as a human being, transform radically, that is, ending fear, understanding the beauty and the nature of pleasure, the enjoyment, joy and the ending of sorrow - if this transformation takes place, you inevitably, in spite of yourself, affect the whole consciousness of mankind. And that's why it is so tremendously important that each human being transform himself. Right?

So we are asking: can sorrow end, not suppress it, not run away from it, not analyse it and dissipate it. Right? You understand? Not give the sorrow to some other cause and say that is the reason why I suffer. So we are asking: is there an ending of sorrow which man has carried for millennia and go beyond sorrow? Sorrow is the intensification of certain forms of energy. Right? I am just thinking aloud. This is a certain energy. I lose my son and I am shocked and I am in sorrow. Right? Or I lose my wife - it doesn't matter, I'll take my son. I haven't got a son but I'll take it as an example. What happens? He dies. There is a physical shock, tears, nervous response and a sense of deep isolation. Then you cannot stand this intensity of that energy - it is a form of energy - so there is an escape from it. Right? Please, listen to all this. An escape from it: a temple, a guru, an explanation, reincarnation, this or - those are all an abstraction of the fact. Right? You are wandering away from the fact. Now it is a fact that he is dead. It is a fact that I can't have him again. It's a fact that I have put all my hope, pleasure, hoping that he will be somebody better than me and all that nonsense. So when he dies, it's a tremendous blow to my image. Right? And also in that there is great isolation, self-pity. Now, can you - please listen - can you remain with the fact that I have lost my son, that there is sorrow, it's an actuality, it is not a theory, it is not a supposition, it is a fact that I suffer, not to escape, not to suppress, not to give explanations, say I will meet him next life, all right, but to remain totally, completely with the fact that my son is dead and there is sorrow, not move away from that fact. When you move away from that fact, you are dissipating energy. I don't know if you see it. When you say I have lost my son, why should I lose my son, as though it is very important for me to have my son not lost, doesn't matter if you lose your son! You follow? I want an explanation for it. I am going to resort to karma and reincarnation and all that stuff. Or if I don't believe in all that, I want a rational explanation. So all these escapes, rationalised explanation, resorting to karma, reincarnation are dissipation of energy. When you have to look at a fact and remain with that fact, you have to have all your energy. Are you understanding all this? Now, can you do it? Then you will see without the interference of thought. That is, I have lost my son which is a fact and the loss has brought tremendous shock both biological as well as psychological, and to remain with that, not move away from it. Because now I have got, I have gathered, there is gathering of all energy which transforms the feeling of sorrow. So it becomes passion. I wonder if you understand it! Do you understand?

Because we have no passion. There is lust, there is sexual desire, urgency and all that but there is no flame, passion. We are all burnt out. Right? So that passion comes only when you remain completely with the fact and with sorrow. Right? Do it, not as a theory because you suffer, for God's sake do it. You suffer - wife, husband, oh, it doesn't matter, you lose your job - you follow? - a dozen ways human beings suffer. To remain with it, to hold it as a precious jewel.

Audience: (Interruption)

K: Please, sir, please, sir, for God's sake. Sir, this is one of the most important things in life to understand, not only sorrow but fear, pleasure, to remain with it and not move away from it. If you are afraid of fear, remain with it, look at it, don't wander away from fear. Then you have the energy to look and when there is complete energy which is attention, fear is not. In the same way when you - please, do pay attention, this is, don't sneeze, yawn - so in the same way when you consider sorrow which man has carried for millennia and has found no way out of it, we are saying there is a way which is totally to hold that thing completely with your heart, with your mind and remain with it. Then that sorrow is transformed into passion and then that passion is love. Then it becomes compassion. Not devotion, devotion is sentimentality, romanticism, it has nothing to do with love or with compassion. Right? So now let's proceed.

Then there is the problem of death. Right? It's very important to ask not what is after death, what is before death. You understand my question, do you understand what I am saying? We are always asking what happens after death. Right? We never ask the question: what is before death. You get it? So we are asking that question: what is before death? Which is the life that you lead before death, the sixty years, fifty years or eight years or ten years, doesn't matter what years, the life that one leads before death is much more important than what happens after death. So what is before death, what is our life before death? A constant struggle, not only to earn your livelihood which is becoming more and more difficult, over-population, division of humanity into groups, into geographical groups as India, Asia - you follow? - division. And therefore conflict. So we are asking - what are we asking?

Q: What is before death.

K: Yes, I said, we said what is before death? We said what is before death? What is your life during the years that you have lived till the last minute, what has been your life? Your life, not mine. Not your wife, your neighbour, your life. You understand? A series of conflicts, struggle, misery, confusion, battle, in yourself, with your neighbour, with your wife, with your husband, a series of conflicts, jealousies, struggle, sorrow, pain, that's your life before death. Right? And that's what we call living. And when you see that, actually, it's a terrible thing to see it. Right? You understand? It's an ugly, it's a tremendously sad thing to see how human beings waste their life. You understand, sir? So before and the actual fact of death and after, that's what we are discussing now. Before the fact of death and is there a future? We are saying death is inevitable, obviously. Because we misuse our body, organ, spoil it, destroy it through comfort, taste - you follow? - all the business of it, indulgence in every form, sex and otherwise and gradually wear it out. The more struggle you have the greater the wearing out of the brain. When there is no struggle, no conflict, no effort, the brain becomes something extraordinary. We'll go into that if we have time.

So there is the fact of living which is confusion, misery, conflict, all the rest of it. Then there is the fact of dying. Fact, these are facts. The other may be, may not be. I am going to go into all this. Don't - follow this right through. The continuity of our life through fifty years or hundred years, whatever the length of time, in that time we are destroying each other. Right? There is no love. These are actual facts. We are competing with each other, ruthless with each other. We are willing to kill each other, in the name of God, in the name of religion, in the name of nation. Economically we have become more and more entangled and strangled because of over-population. So our life, your life is a battle, is a confusion, is misery. Right? I am not exaggerating, I am just showing it to you, facts. And that life comes to an end. That is, the brain which has sustained this, which has manufactured this through thought - right? - thought has been responsible for this misery and confusion and this thought is the result of memory, response of memory, knowledge which is stored up in the brain, a material process, when that brain through lack of oxygen and so on, so on, disease, dies, thought as we know it comes to an end. That's one point. I'll go into it. And then if you don't transform radically, fundamentally, psychologically, but remain in this trap, what happens? You understand my question?

So we have to enquire what is a human being, as you are, what is a human being? You go to America, Europe, Russia, China, India, the world over and human beings are suffering, in sorrow, in grief, in ambition, jealousy, hating each other, violence. So you are - please, bear in mind - you are the rest of humanity, because you are like that, right through the world, you may have your peculiar idiosyncrasies, peculiar habits but basically, radically you are like the rest of the human beings - they suffer, their agonies, they are in despair, depressed, in sorrow, crying. You don't understand this. So unless this vast stream of humanity, of which you are, unless a human being steps out of that stream, that stream will go on, won't it? You get the idea? Human beings live this way, wherever they are - that's the stream going on and that stream goes on and you die but the stream will go on. And the manifestation of that stream - please, listen, I am just looking at it - the manifestation of that stream becomes another human being, with equal misery, confusion, you know. And people say yes, there is reincarnation. There have been books written about it, scientists have investigated, this is part of this and so on, so on, so on. You can indulge in all that if you want to. So, unless a human being radically transforms himself, that is, move away from that stream, step out of that stream, that stream will go on. Right? That's one problem. The second problem in death is: death means the ending. Right? The actual ending of your attachments, of your pleasure, of your ambition. Right? Ending. Now can you end ambition, die to ambition now, so that you know what it means to die? You understand what I am saying? Not biologically die but know what it means to end something completely. You understand? To end your ambition, your greed, your violence, instantly end it and see what takes place. You understand, sir? Are you following all this?

So there is that stream and the stream continues if you don't end. And there is an ending of that stream when you die to your sorrow, which I have explained, to your fear and the demand for pleasure, to end it. Then your brain is never burdened by memory, except technological memory. You understand? Technological memory is necessary, otherwise you can't function. But why should we burden our brain with memories? My wife beat me, I beat her; I hate that person and - you follow? - the memory, the collected memories handed over from generation to generation to generation - why? Why should we do this? If that ends, then your consciousness with its content is emptying itself. You understand? Have you understood it?

Now I am going to discuss, go into the question of meditation. Don't take immediate posture, please. To me - not me - it's very important to understand what meditation is. Not how to meditate, please, not how to meditate but what is meditation. If you understand the depth of what is meditation then you are meditating. You follow? You understand? If you see the importance, the beauty, the richness of meditation, see it, not how to meditate but then that very perception is meditation. I am going to go into that. We have a lot to talk about! Right.

First of all, let us put aside all the silly meditations, shall we? Transcendental meditation, which is just taking a nap for twenty minutes in the morning, afternoon and in the evening, repeating some words, that is sheer nonsense. I don't know, I believe in America it has become twenty million dollar Institution. You understand? Twenty million dollar industry! You can imagine what it is like when it becomes so much money. So we can push that aside. Then we can also push aside the whole idea of practice. Practice implies system. System implies a mechanical process of repetition. Right? You have a system of meditation. I'll come to that presently. Which is, I practise every day, try to control thought or put my mind on an image or repeat certain words - Sanskrit or other words. So what is the effect of a system, practice on the brain? You are following all this? It becomes mechanical. Right? In mechanical habits and activity, your brain is gradually becoming a machine. And so you are becoming duller and duller and duller. There is no revolt, there is no breaking through, there is no passion. You are just slowing the brain down, sitting quietly, breathing quietly but the flowering of a human being doesn't taking place. So we can wipe away the transcendental - I wish they haven't used that word, it's a beautiful word. Then we can put aside systems, if you see it, don't, if you see what it does. Our brains are already mechanical. Tradition is a mechanical repetition, rituals are mechanical, they give you a certain form of sensation and so on but it is mechanical. The repetition of yoga and you know, all the rest of it. So we can put aside all that.

Then we are concerned with concentration, control and attention. Concentration, what is concentration? Look at it, what is concentration? To concentrate your thought on something, to bring all your energy, attention, all your focus on to a certain point. Which means what? You are excluding every other movement. Right? You build a wall round that particular object on which you want to concentrate, you build a wall to exclude all other thoughts. Right? So concentration implies an entity who is concentrating on something. Right? In that is implied there is a controller and the controlled. Right? Are you all getting tired? So you have to understand concentration which implies effort, which implies resistance, which implies also that there is a controller controlling thought so as not to wander off; all that is implied, effort. So you have to understand who is the controller who is trying to control thought. You understand? Is not that which is trying to control part of thought? Eh? Do you see this, sir? So look at the trick thought has played upon itself. He says 'I am stable, I am permanent, I know, I am the past, I have learnt a great deal, I am going to control that thought' - which is part of himself. So as long as there is a division between the controller and the controlled, there must be conflict, there must be effort and that's a wastage of energy. Right? But when you see the controller is the controlled, dissipation of energy disappears. There is energy, not dissipation of it. I don't know - we must go into all this. Right.

So, that's one thing. Effort, when you make effort, it is a dissipation of energy. Right? So meditation is not concentration. Right? Is not practice, is not repetition but emptying consciousness of its content. You understand? The content is hurt, fear, pleasure and with all the implications of pleasure, the ending of sorrow. And from the ending of sorrow this extraordinary compassion, the beauty, the flame of it. Compassion means passion for all, for everything. And when there is this sense of emptiness, there is silence. You understand what I am talking?

Q: (Inaudible)

K: Just a minute. You can ask a little bit afterwards. If you are following this, you won't ask questions. If you are actually doing it, you are involved in it, your heart, your mind, your body, everything is involved in it. There is no room to say, what do you mean by that? Because you are asking yourself then, not somebody else. So silence that is cultivated is no silence. Right? It is an abstraction of thought called silence. Look, sir: silence is silence - there is silence between two noises - right? - between two notes in music, there is silence between two wars, there is silence between two quarrels but that's not silence. Right? So anything thought has created or thought of as silence is not silence. I wonder if you see this. Right? Do you see it? Right, sir?

So silence comes into being when consciousness with its content is empty. Right? In that silence - are you going to practise all this? Because, you see, one dare not enter into this with words because you capture the words and you are destroyed. Words have a meaning. Look, sir, I'll show you something. There is fear. Right? Is the word 'fear', fear? Or has the word created fear? Think it out, think it out, don't say no. There is fear. Is the word 'fear' or has the word created fear? So if there is no word is there fear? So we are slaves to words. Right? So one must understand the word is not the thing. The word 'door' is not the door. So the description is not the described. But we cling to the description, because there is a verbal structure, there is a meaning in it, words have certain meaning and we are satisfied with that. We never say, finish with that - let's look at the described. And you can only look at the described if you have laid the foundation. If there is the foundation where the mind is free, the brain is no longer contaminated by thought. I wonder if you understand all this!

Then out of that comes silence, not manufactured by thought, by a guru, by influence, by practise. And in that there is great beauty, because more and more we are destroying beauty both outwardly and we never know what beauty is, inside. So because we don't know what love is therefore we don't know what beauty is. Right? So in that silence there is no movement as time. Therefore time, thought comes to an end. Not through compulsion, through control but naturally, easily without any effort because thought has realised its own place, has realised its own limitation, whatever it projects is still limitation because in itself is limitation. Therefore in that silence there is no movement of time. You know what that means, sir? That's enough for this evening. Right. That's enough, sir, I have said, for this evening.

Q: (Inaudible)

K: What sir? How to?

Q: (Inaudible)

K: I wonder if you could not ask questions but enquire into yourself all this. Look at yourself as though in a mirror. The speaker is acting as a mirror. Right? When you see yourself in the mirror, then you can destroy the mirror. Right? So use the mirror and then destroy it.

Q: (Inaudible)

K: Sir, I am sorry, we have talked enough. We have talked enough, sir. Right, sirs.