The challenge of the present.

What do you think will be worthwhile to talk over together this morning?

Questioner: Forgive me, sir, I'll ask the same what I asked the other day: what is the difference between sleep and meditation?

Krishnamurti: I've got it.

Q: Sir, the fact is the actual, ideal is not a fact. I experience fear as fact. How can I learn about that fact of fear and be free of fear?

K: All right. How can one learn about fear and be free of fear; and the other question was, is it possible while you are asleep to meditate.

Q: When I am in a state of fear how can I learn? Only a second later I can think about fear.

K: Yes, yes, I'll go into - we'll go into that. Any other...

Q: Could we talk about what causes distortion, distortion such as fear and aggression.

K: What brings about in our activity, in our thinking, distortion, a deformed, neurotic way of thinking.

Q: Sir, yesterday, we talked about life of contradictions and how to get over this life of contradiction.

K: You talked yesterday about contradictions and is it possible to be free of contradiction.

Q: Sir, most of us in this world are dishonest, do not do our duties and most of us exploit others. Even the few people who are free from all this see the other people and they have a greater conflict and some of them succumb to this, thinking that they'll not have conflict if they sail in the same boat. Is there a solution for all these problems?

K: Is there any solution to all our problems of dishonesty, contradiction, exploiting each other and so on.

Q: You said thinker is the product of thought. Is the observer also the product of the observed?

Q: (Inaudible)

K: I don't quite understand your question, sir.

Q: Conflict arises because there is no co-ordination between ideals and reality.

K: So what is the question sir? So, what shall we discuss? Do you want to talk about sleep and meditation? Do you want to talk about fear? Whether the thought produces the thinker, and so does the observer produce the observed, and how can we with all our complications of our in life - dishonesty, contradiction, unhappiness - how can we resolve all these many problems? Which would you like to discuss?

Q: The last one.

K: The last one, that is...

Q: (Inaudible)

K: (Laughs) Would you mind, would you mind not reading what you've written, just talk about it.

Q: (Inaudible)

K: I am sorry I couldn't understand. Would you... please don't read it, just tell me in simple words.

Q: (Inaudible)

K: Has somebody understood the question - except the questioner? (Laughter)

Q: Free to observe...

Pupul Jayakar: She says you have said that you must be free to observe...

K: Aha... You said that to observe trees, nature, the skies, the rivers, the waters, observe people, and observe oneself, there must be freedom; will not this freedom lead to chaos? That is what the lady asks. So what shall we talk over together? Together, not I answer and you just listen, but together go into the question. Which question would you like to take?

Q: Fact, actual fact, psychologically, could you see fact - psychologically.

Q: About fear.

K: Do you want to talk about fear?

Q: Meditation.

K: Now look, please don't ask any more questions, let's find out which of these questions you would like to talk about. That to observe one must be free and if there is freedom will not there be chaos in the world? The other is: we live such a complicated contradictory life, rather stupid, exploiting, hurting people, with all our problems, is it possible to resolve them all? And to talk about meditation and sleep, and fear. Now just a minute, which of these questions would you like to discuss very carefully?

Q: Second one.

K: Which is that? (Laughter) Why do you laugh? I am just asking.

Q: Solution for all our contradictions...

K: Can we be free, would you like to discuss that? That is, with all our complications of our life: poverty, exploitation, conflict, suffering, all our life which is so miserable, so unhappy, can we be free of that? Shall we discuss this?

Audience: Yes.

K: Do you really want to go into it?

A: Yes.

K: Seriously?

Q: Also fear.

K: Including fear. What do you think is the central factor which causes all these disturbances, contradictions, misery? What is the central root of it? Do you understand? We can discuss the pruning of a tree and we can go on talking about pruning, pruning trees. But if the root is rotten and is not healthy, whatever it produces must be rotten, inedible, useless. So, are we discussing, talking over together, the pruning of the branches, the peripheral activity or going to the very root of the matter?

Please understand my question first: shall we talk over together the peripheral. You know the word peripheral, which is the outer; the branches of a tree, the outer branches, or shall we concern ourselves and find out what is the root cause of all this - disturbances, hypocrisy, fear, the invention of gods and all the rest of it, the misery that man lives in. Now, which shall we discuss? The peripheral activities or the root cause of all this?

Q: The root cause.

K: Wait, wait (laughs). You want to discuss the root cause of it. How do you find out? How do you find out the root cause of all our misery, confusion and all the rest of it. The root cause. Now just a minute, let me explain a little bit. Is there a cause? You understand? We say there must be a cause for all this misery, for all this confusion, for all this uncertainty, fear and so we are trying to look for a cause. Right? Now is there such a cause? We are looking for it. But there may be no cause at all. You understand my question? Let us find out. Now, where do you begin to enquire? You understand? We want to find out the cause, the beginning of all this confusion. Right? The beginning, and if you could understand it, eliminate it, be free of it, then perhaps life will be a marvellous affair. So how do you try to find out the root of it? You understand my question? Do you take one branch and go to the root - you understand my question? - take one branch like fear, like pleasure, like sorrow, like confusion, take one issue, and work it down to the root. You follow? That is, take... Look, sir, there is a tree, do you take each branch and go down to the root - there are many branches - or do you see the whole of it? You understand? I wonder if you... May I... Is this clear?

Q: Received the whole of it.

K: Sir, may I put it this way - would you kindly listen, I haven't finished yet - sir there are spokes of a wheel - right? - collecting the spokes will not make the wheel. Right? Are you clear on this point?

Q: Not clear.

K: Are you clear? Collecting the many spokes will not make the wheel. So do you have a perception of the whole or do you want to discuss a particular and then through the particular come to the whole? You have understood my question? Through the particular come to the whole, or you have a perception of the whole and then take the particular. You see the difference? One is to analyse. Right? Analysing the particular, and then through the analysis come to the root, or, without analysis see the whole and work out the particular. I wonder if I am making myself clear.

Q: Is it possible for an artist to hold the whole?

K: I am going into it sir, go slowly, have a little patience. First, please understand my question, this is very important. We are always taking a particular like fear and then try through fear to understand the whole movement of our life. Right? Or you understand the whole movement and then take a particular thing. Look, like an architect - is any of you an architect here? No. Like an architect, he has a perception of the whole building. The whole building - the nature of it, the structure of it, the beauty of it, the line of it, the proportions, the shade and the depth and so on, and having the perception of the whole he work out the details. Right? You understand this? Now which is it we are going to do?

Q: Perception.

K: No, have you understood my question? Please be good enough to understand my question first. We are used to work out from the particular, deduce, whereas there may be of doing it, a different way of looking at it. Take the whole of life, and see the very root of it. You are not used to that, so you have never done it, you are not used to it, so let us begin with the particular. Right? What would you take up, the particular fear, or confusion or unhappiness?

A: Fear.

K: Fear. Shall we? In the understanding, exploring, going into the whole movement of fear, will you find out - please listen - will you find out the root of all this confusion, of all the misery. Do you understand what I am saying? I will explain, I am afraid - I will go into fear later on. I am afraid. By understanding and being free of fear, will I have solved all the other problems? - confusion, uncertainty, sorrow, anxiety, greed, hatred. You understand my question? By understanding, going very deeply into fear, will I resolve all the other problems?

A: Yes.

K: Be clear on this point. So it is very important to understand, whether by discussing one particular aspect of our life, will you understand the totality of our life? You understand? Am I making my question clear? Yes sir? No, you sir, you are looking at me. You don't understand me. Do you understand?

Q: Yes, I follow.

K: You follow what I am saying. Right. So as you are not used to taking the whole of life and looking at it, but you are used to, through education, through tradition and so on, you are conditioned to take one aspect of life and hoping thereby to resolve all the other problems. Right? So let us do that. Fear, you want to discuss fear. Right? What is fear? You are afraid; aren't you? At least be honest to yourself. You are afraid, aren't you - afraid of losing your job; afraid of death; afraid of not reaching god or whatever it is, afraid of not doing the right thing; afraid of not being respectable. Right? So you have many, many forms of fear, which is the fear that you have?

Q: Fear of the future.

K: Future. Fear of tomorrow, is that it? One is afraid of tomorrow. Now, please, what is your particular fear?

Q: Fear of wasting life.

K: Fear of wasting life, your life. Now go on, find out, sir, what is your fear?

Q: Fear of ignorance.

K: Oh, come off it! Are you afraid of ignorance, not being...

Q: I'm not afraid, generally, ignorance is... (Laughter)

K: You, sir.

Q: I don't have fear of anything at all.

K: No, sir, please listen, we are talking seriously. This is not a matter of laughter. This is not a matter of laughter. Please listen sir. You said fear of ignorance. Are you really frightened of being ignorant?

Q: No sir, I am not at all sir.

K: Sir, I am asking you a question: are you afraid of being ignorant?

Q: No, sir.

K: Then why do you bring that up?

Q: I see it's a problem.

K: Whose problem?

Q: Problem generally, sir.

K: No, sir. I asked - either you are not courteous enough to listen to my question, which is: what is your particular form of fear? Yours, not somebody else's.

Q: I am sorry sir, I have got no problem of fear. (Laughter)

K: The gentleman says he has no fear. We can't say anything more about it.

Q: I am afraid of public opinion.

K: So, you are afraid of public opinion, afraid of tomorrow, future. So, what are you afraid of?

Q: Afraid of suffering.

K: Afraid of suffering. Go on, sir, please - unless you are all marvellously free human beings of fear...

Q: Sir, death.

K: Afraid of death, afraid of suffering.

Q: Afraid of losing security.

K: Afraid of losing security, both physical and psychological.

Q: Afraid of doing the wrong thing in relationship.

K: Afraid of doing wrong things in relationship.

Q: Afraid of not being able to forget.

K: Afraid of not being able to forget, that is, regrets, having regrets. Now which of these you want to go into?

Q: (Inaudible)

K: Just listen, sir, don't immediately... look sir, have the courtesy to listen, politeness to listen. I am asking because you have so many fears: fears of tomorrow, fears of insecurity, fear of death, fear of wasting one's life and so on. Which if these do you want to go into?

Q: Security.

K: I am waiting sir. You tell me!

Q: All fears, sir, all fears.

Q: Fear of insecurity.

K: Shall we go into that?

Q: Yes.

K: You see you'll agree to anything. You are not responsible for yourself. You are not thinking out for yourself. I asked you most respectfully: what is your particular form of fear? Are you aware of it? Do you know it? Do you know your particular fear, sir?

Q: Yes.

Q: Fear of my own consciousness.

Q: Fear of I don't know what.

K: Fear of the unknown, which is death, fear of tomorrow, which is the unknown. You don't know what might happen tomorrow. There might be an earthquake. The building might fall down and kill you. You see, it shows, sir, that you have not looked at yourself. It shows that you do not know your particular fear. You want to discuss fear as a generality. You don't say, look, I am frightened. I am frightened of death; I am frightened of loneliness; I am frightened of losing my wife; I am frightened of losing my sex; I am frightened of losing the property I own; I am frightened of not getting a better job. You follow sirs? Which of these are you aware of? You follow sir?

Q: The ending of life before self-realisation, before knowing self.

K: Fear of death before knowing the whole nature of myself.

Q: Yes sir, right sir.

K: That is your fear. Now please, which of these fears do you want to discuss? Your fear, not mine or somebody else's.

Q: Sir I have a girlfriend. I want to marry her. Her parents will not permit it, so I am afraid.

K: I want to marry a particular girl and her parents won't allow it so I am afraid. Throttle the parents or run away with the girl. (Laughter) You are all grown-up people, I believe, educated, and apparently fear doesn't mean a thing to you. You just talk about it. You really don't know what fear is. Do you? You are all well-fed, good jobs, or money, and you have never found out for yourself what you are afraid of. Look at the tragedy of it, sir, first. The tragedy of so-called educated grown-up people, who have studied sacred books or whatever you have studied and do not know for yourself what you are frightened of. That is a tremendous tragedy. You understand sir?

Now let us take one thing: you are afraid of tomorrow - right? - tomorrow, the future. Right sirs? Shall we discuss that for the moment? What is the future? Just investigate, don't answer. What is the future? When you use the word 'future', tomorrow, or ten years hence, what do you mean by the word 'future'?

Q: Blank - nothing, unknown.

K: Wait, wait. What is the past?

Q: Which has happened before.

K: Please, just listen. The past. What do you mean by the word 'past', what do you mean by the word 'present'? What do you mean by the word 'future'? You understand? The past, the present, and the future, what does that imply?

Q: Time.

K: Sir, don't be nervous, sir.

Q: Time.

K: Time, right?

Q: Known, knowing and to know. The past is the known, present is knowing and future to know.

K: The past, the present, and the future, and somebody said, it is time. Just listen carefully. Time. What do you mean by time? Because... this is... please, I am not quibbling about it. But if you understand this you will understand so much, you'll learn so infinitely. So we are talking about the past, the present and the future. All this implies time - right? - that is, there was yesterday, today, and tomorrow. Right? That is, according to the calendar, it was yesterday, 28th, today is the 29th, tomorrow is the 30th. So according to the calendar, according to the sunrise, sunset, that is one kind of time. Right? There is another kind of time. Which is, I have done something in the past which I regret; I am doing something in the present which is coloured by the past; and the future is shaped by the past. Right? This is simple, isn't it? Have you lost me? So past, present and the future is a movement, isn't it? It is not static. It is not fixed. It is a movement. Right? So time is a movement. Right? This is clear, isn't it. Right, sir? Time is a movement. Are you afraid of this movement? See, see what is implied in it - the past. What do you mean by the past? Don't introduce karma and all the rest of it, but just the past. The past being, how you were educated, your memories of what you have learnt, memories of your pleasures, sexual and others, memories of what you should do, what you should not do. So the past is the collection of memories, remembrances, whether pleasurable, painful or regretful. You are following all this? Don't get tired, please, just (laughs) - just beginning, so don't get tired. You are investigating with me. I am not talking to myself. So the past is all those memories accumulated during the time, whether it is 10 years, 30 years, 50 years or a hundred years. During this lifetime, that's good enough. During this life time. I won't enter into the problem of reincarnation and all that. I am only taking this short period of life in which one is actually living. Which is, there, the past is all the collections of memories, painful, pleasurable, regret and so on. So all that is the past. Right? Is this clear? In this lifetime, not whether you were born previous life and all the rest - we won't enter into that for the moment. So, during this lifetime you have collected all the experiences, memories, knowledge, which is the past. Right? So knowledge is the past. Right? All knowledge is the past. Please see the truth of it, not agreeing, or disagreeing, see the truth of it for yourself. All knowledge, scientific knowledge, knowledge that you have gathered through experience, knowledge that you have gathered through information, all knowledge is the past. Right? Right, sir? Are we learning together? Not memorising what the speaker is saying - learning. So in the past we live, don't we? All your living is in the past. No?

Q: Excepting those moments when we are actively busy, then memory is not interfering in the work.

K: When you are actually living, memory does not interfere. Is that what you are saying?

Q: Yes, please.

K: Is that a theory or an actuality?

Q: Actually.

K: Don't, please, if a may ask you, most kindly, don't theorise, don't speculate, find out actually what your life is.

Q: No, he didn't say that. He said when you are busy memory does not have a powerful place. 'Busy' he said, not 'living'.

K: Living. What do you mean by living? Actual living, is the operation of the past in the present. Right? The past shapes, controls, changes, modifies the present. This is obvious sir! So, if you look at your daily life, you are actually living in the past. You may think you are living in the present, or complying according to the pattern of the future, but actually you are living in the past. Your name, your recognition as so-and-so, the familiarity of your habits, of your surroundings, everything is collected, stored in the past as memory. That's simple. So you are living in the past. You won't like that but that's a fact. Right, sir?

Q: The habit and conditioning come from the past.

K: Habit, conditioning, tradition, everything is from the past. The past meets the present, modifies it and goes on. Right? The future then is the modification of the past, meeting the present, and shaping the future. That's clear, isn't it? This is a simple ordinary daily fact. That is, I have collected lots of memories, unhappy, pleasurable, confusing and so on and I meet the present, the challenge of the present. The challenge. And I respond according to my knowledge, memory and so modify my memories and go on. So the past meeting the present modifies itself and goes on. This is a simple daily fact. The past, which is, you as a Hindu, or as a Brahmin, or whatever it is, the past meets the present 20th century with all its technology, with all its economic problems, and you modify your Brahminism or whatever it is and go on. So life is a movement from the past, through present to the future. Now what is it that you are frightened of?

Q: The unknown, the future.

K: I explained madam, the future is the result of the past.

Q: Losing the past.

K: Losing the past.

Q: Losing my past, yes.

K: The future: you are afraid of the unknown. You are afraid of the unknown, because you are afraid of losing what you know. Is that it?

Q: Being trapped in that movement.

K: Being trapped in?

Q: That movement.

K: In what movement?

Q: That, past and future.

K: Sir, you haven't understood, sir, please. I am asking you, please, sir, what you are afraid of. You say, 'I am afraid of the unknown, the future'. Please listen. You are afraid of the future. What is the future? It's a movement of the known, the past, modifying itself and going on. This is your daily life. So, what are you afraid of? Ending this movement?

Q: In that there is no fear at all. We need not fear, sir.

K: Oh, don't. What do you mean... are you... when you say...

Q: I need not fear because the past has become the present, the present is going to become the future, there is nothing to be feared.

K: Is that a fact with you? (Laughter) Don't laugh sir, please! I am asking you, please.

Q: I am just talking for myself, sir. When we are exploring this, now I don't see there is need for any fear.

K: Sir I am asking you if I may, respectfully, when you have understood this business of past, present and future, you have ceased to fear?

Q: Yes sir.

K: Actually?

Q: Actually. Because there is nothing to be feared.

K: You see, you don't answer my question.

Q: Yes, I have answered, sir.

Q: The more I explore the origin of the concept of time I am afraid whether I have used my time in the past correctly.

K: I understand, sir. Sir, it is not a concept. It is a fact. Don't make a fact into a concept, which is very important to understand this. The fact is we live in the past, we are jealous, we know hatred, it is all in the past. And that past is all the time moving in the present, modifying, going on - it's like a river that is going on. It is not a concept. It is a fact of daily life. Right, sir?

Q: But even then my fear is whether I am using it correctly.

K: I am going to come to that sir, first please listen. You are this movement. Aren't you? You are not separate from this movement of the past, the present, and the future. You are that. Right sir? You can say, well, I am the higher self, there is god in me, it is still the past tradition, saying that there is... and so on. All that is the past. Even your higher self, even your atman, the Brahman, the whole works of theology is still in the past, which you have accepted, which has been, through propaganda of years, impinged on your mind, on your brain. So you are the past. You are being modified in the present. You are the future. Right? That is a fact. That is an actuality. Right? Now what are you afraid of?

Q: Having accepted it, sir...

K: No, don't. Please sir, you have not accepted it. Please listen sir. Kindly listen. You have not accepted an idea. You have seen the fact. There is no need for acceptance. The sun rises and the sun sets. You don't say, I accept that idea. (Laughter) You are all so cuckoo, you don't think. You just live in ideas, words. So I am saying, you, Mr Smith, you Mr Rao, whatever it is, you are the past, you are the present, modified by the present activities and you are the future. This whole movement is you. You are not separate from time. Time is the past, present, and the future. You are the channel of time, you are that time. Right? That is a fact like a microphone. Now, wait a minute, what are you afraid of?

Q: (Inaudible)

K: Wait sir, you have not even listened to the question. Please! Have the courtesy, politeness, to let the speaker finish his sentence. Think it out before you answer my question. I said, you are this, the whole movement of time. Sir, see the beauty of it. You are missing so much; you are this whole time. And what are you afraid of? This movement coming to an end? Are you afraid of that?

Q: Pleasure coming to an end sir. We want continuance of pleasure. I want continuity.

K: So, you are afraid of losing pleasure. Just a minute sir, go into it quietly. You are afraid of losing your pleasure. Pleasure - sexual pleasure - right? - pleasure of having clothes, position, car, money - if you have all that - pleasure of your family, pleasure of achievement. So all this pleasure you are afraid of losing. Now, wait a minute. What is pleasure? See, you use the word, and think you have understood it. What do you mean by that word 'pleasure'? You look at a sunset, if you ever do, I am afraid you don't, but if you do look at a sunset, and see the beauty of that sunset - the colour, the streaks of light, the quietness of a sunset and so on, when you do look at it, it gives a great pleasure. Like looking at a beautiful tree, like looking at a beautiful woman or a man, it gives you pleasure - sexual excitement, sensory and all the rest of it. Now, at the moment, at the second of that pleasure, you don't call it pleasure, do you?

Q: Well...

K: Do, do... Have the courtesy to listen to my question. At the moment of anger, at the second of anger, there is only anger, there is not, 'I am angry' - that comes a second later. Right? So, at the moment of pleasure, at the second of pleasure, there is no saying, 'I am seeking pleasure'. Right? So, always a second, or a minute later, you say, how happy I was, I want more of it. So watch it carefully, sir, please have the courtesy, the politeness, to listen. That is, at the moment of anger, at the moment of greed, or jealousy there is only that fact, that reaction which we have named as anger, jealousy, pleasure and so on. At the second, there is no identification. But a few seconds later comes identification, and we say 'That was pleasurable. I must have more of it'.

Now what is implied in that? The moment of happening in which there is no 'I', a second later the 'I' comes in and says, 'How lovely that was and I must have more of it.' And the pursuit of it. Now, what is that, this movement?

Q: What do you mean 'identification'?

K: Is it not the movement of time? Just look at it. The movement of time. The second it happens, there is no time. There is no saying, 'Ah, how happy I am.' A second later you say, 'How happy I am.'

Q: (Inaudible)

K: Do listen - I haven't... Sir, I said have the courtesy, the politeness to listen to the speaker till he has finished. Find out what he wants to say. And then you can say whatever you want to say. I am not preventing you from saying anything you want to say. So, this second of happening, then identification with that happening with myself and wanting more of it. If it is pain, at the moment of pain there is no you. A second later you say, 'Oh, how awful, I have an awful pain'. Then the avoidance of it. It is the same movement as pleasure, same movement as pain. So all that movement is time, isn't it? Time is involved.

So what you are afraid of is not being able to pursue the pleasure that you have, and the ending of it, isn't it? You are afraid of your pleasure ending. Right? So what are you going to do about it? Go on, answer. What are you going to do about your pleasure and the pursuit of pleasure and the fear that it may end? You are faced with the problem. Right? What is your response to it?

Q: How non-time, which is a fact, is touched by time now?

K: I don't understand the question.

Q: He says the fact of non-time is touched by time.

Q: Time is a movement. It must go on. And the other, which is non-time... how it is...

K: You haven't understood, sir. Time must go on? The sun rises and sun sets. There is night and darkness. That will go on even though you don't exist and I die, but this will go on. Right? So time will go on.

Q: But how...

K: Wait sir, listen to what I am saying! I must have the patience of the devil! You don't seem to have a little patience. You go on with your own ideas, with your own thinking. That is, time by the clock, which is chronological time, sun rising, sun setting, the stars, the moon, that is so marvellously orderly, that will go on. Right? Even though you die. So what you are afraid of is the ending of you, with your pleasures, with your anxieties, with your memories, with your pain, with your sorrow, with your losing attachments, all that is what you are afraid of. Right? No?

Q: Sometime back you said that this happens and after a split-second or some kind of time you begin to be aware of it. There is a leap between the two, there is a gap between the two. How the link happens is what I am asking you.

K: I don't understand your question.

Q: I'll make myself clear. There is fear rising in you.

K: In you.

Q: I hope you...

K: No, sir.

Q: I don't know about you...

K: You don't know about me or about anybody else.

Q: No, I know about myself I am talking.

K: So please be actual.

Q: Correct. Fear arises and after a split-second I recognise it.

Q: How does the 'I' which is in time operate on this non-time which is fear.

Q: How does the brain record time?

Q: Sir, he is saying I see a beautiful sunset and at that moment I do not have any recording of that sensation. A moment later I recognise it as a beautiful thing.

K: No sir, that is not what he is talking about. What is he saying? Make it simple.

PJ: He says fear arises in me. For a split second, I recognise that as fear. The recognition of it as fear is in time. But fear itself is out of time. What is the difference between fear in time and fear out of time? Because that sensation is out of time.

K: All right, I've got your question.

Q: (Inaudible)

K: Sir, that gentleman has asked a question and you are going on with your question. You have not had the courtesy to listen to his question. How impolite we are! The question is, as far as I understand it, and please correct if I am wrong, the question is: fear arises, and the arising of that fear is out of time. Then, I recognise it by naming it and so make that into time. Right, sir? What is the relationship of fear, which existed before I named it, that fear and the fear of time. Right? Is this your question sir?

Q: I think it is not...

Q: The last sentence is not correct, he says. He does not agree.

K: What is not correct sir?

Q: Whatever comes upon, according to your statement, I've been following, as it happens, after a split-second you begin operating upon it. That's in time.

PJ: The same thing.

K: You're saying the same... I am afraid, sir... I have repeated what you have said. May I repeat it again, sir, which is at the moment of arising, fear is out of time, according to you. Then, the naming of it, the giving it a recognition, that is in time. So what is the relationship.

Q: Krishnaji, you said according to me, is it not according to you also?

PJ: He is saying you said that it is according to him, he is asking you, is it not so according to you?

K: I will tell you what I... Oh, for god's sake! Will you move out of your position, sir, if I correct you? If you will change your position, if I show you?

Q: Definitely.

K: Right, sir. Let's be very, very simple. Anger arises, then you name it. Right? At the moment of the arising of that thing called anger, there is no time. When you name it then it becomes time. Right? So are you asking: is it possible to be aware, or watch the arising of anger, and not name it. If you don't name it, it is out of time, the moment you name it, you bring it into time. Right? Pupulji, that's what he... that's what...

Q: He actually said, what is the link? You have...

K: Of course. Sir, this is a little complicated. Go into it with me, if you will, if you are interested, and if not, go and jump, skip rope, or whatever you like.

Q: Unless time is usually with no time, there cannot be a link between the two. Absolutely there cannot be a link between the two.

K: Quite right, sir.

Q: And then how the link happened is my question.

K: What? How does it happen, what?

PJ: You've just explained this by saying that the very act of naming...

K: He doesn't listen, you see.

PJ: ...the act of recognising, which is naming brings...

K: Sir, this is purely an abstract thing, you are not doing it. Let us put it much simpler. What are you afraid of? All the past is you, all your memories, all your pains, all your pleasures, and your aspirations, your idea of atman, god, this, all that, the past which is you, you are not different from the past. So, what are you afraid of? Ending this? Which is death, isn't it? Right? Right sir? Ending. Now wait a minute. Have you ever ended - please listen - have you ever ended while you are living now, a particular attachment? You are attached to something, aren't you? Right? Yes sir? Wife, house, ideas, beliefs, you are attached to something. Can you end it without argument, without saying why should I end it, what is... You won't discuss this with death. You understand? He does not give you time to discuss, say, 'Wait a minute old boy, give me time, let me detach myself'. He says, end. Have you ever ended a particular attachment, ended it? Have you?

Q: Yes, sir.

K: Don't be flippant sir, this is very serious. Have you ended any pleasure?

Q: No, sir.

K: No. Find out. Find out if you can end a particular pleasure. End it, not say, well, I will end it today and pick it up day after tomorrow. Your attachment to your wife, to your children - end it. And see what happens. That is what is going to happen when death comes. Right? You have no time to argue with death. Probably you will die of some disease, or unconscious, so I am saying, while you are living find out for yourself what it means to end something, completely end, not pick it up next year. Then you are facing fear. Right? Then you are actually facing fear and frightened of what might happen if you detach yourself from something - do it! - if you leave your order of monks, leave your guru, leave your tradition, leave your beliefs. End it with a sharp knife so that it is finished. Then you will know what fear is. Because then you will find that you are tremendously lonely. You understand? And that is great fear. But without ending something you are trying to discuss theoretically. And you will go on, I am sure of it. You will go on being attached, go on talking about all this and next year when I meet, 'Yes, let us talk about attachment.' (Laughter)

So, you never in your life, living, face fear. You talk about fear, and I say you will know the nature of fear when you free yourself from any kind of attachment. Give up your Hinduism - you might lose your job, you might not be able to marry your daughter. You follow? So, you are frightened. So if you are serious, if you go into this matter of fear very deeply, you have to test it, you have to find out for yourself, not play around with words. You are attached to your wife, aren't you? No? Or to your girlfriend, aren't you? Or to your job, or to your opinion? Or to something or the other? Will you naturally, happily end it? Go on, sir.

Q: Sir, when you try to end a habit, conflict is produced.

K: When you end a habit, conflict is produced. Because one has not understood the nature of the habit, why the mind, the brain functions in habit. You function as a Hindu, which is a habit. Right? You function as a specialist, as a doctor, an engineer, or a businessman, and that's a habit. Why does the brain function in habits?

What a tragedy it is, sir, how you are wasting your life. That is what that gentleman asked: he asked, how I am to prevent myself from wasting my one life, the precious life, that I have. Please help me to prevent the wastage of that life. Right? Aren't you wasting your life?

Q: Yes.

K: Consider it sir, aren't you wasting your life?

Don't take notes sir, please apply it to yourself, not notes, for god's sake! What is the matter with all of you? When somebody tells you, he loves you, do you take notes? (Laughter) That is what I am telling you, sir. I am telling you I love you, and you say, 'Yes sir, very interesting' (laughter), or, you think about something else. Oh, you people... Aren't you wasting your lives sirs and ladies? If you are living in a world of ideas you are wasting your life. The word 'idea' - idea, you know, the word I-D-E-A, the word idea comes from Greek, which means to observe. Just to observe, not make an abstraction of what you have observed and that abstraction becomes an idea. You understand? The word 'idea' means from Greek, Latin and so on, pure observation. Now have you observed how you are wasting your life? Aren't you, aren't you wasting your lives, sirs? Which means you are living in a world of ideas, world of make-believe, world of suppositions and theories. Right? Or some conclusion you have come to and you live with that conclusion; all that, if I may point out, is a waste of life. Life is to be lived, to be understood, gone into very, very, very deeply. That's your life. Why you are so colossally selfish - aren't you, colossally selfish? Right, sir? Aren't you? And how can a selfish man live without conflict? He must live in conflict.

There you are, you are taking notes again. Why do you waste your time coming here sir? So look sirs, the speaker wants to tell you something: tell you that there is a different way of living, actually in daily life, not in heaven or in some future, in daily life there is a way of living where life isn't a problem, life isn't a struggle, life isn't a beastly everyday boredom, and I want to tell you, I want to communicate with you. That means let's talk it over together. Not you accept or agree with what I say, but let's talk it over. But you, you are not willing to do that. You sit there, and accept or reject what is said, or you are mesmerised by your own ideas. You understand sir? So, please don't waste your life. This is the only life you have! You may think you have a future life - reincarnation, but what you do now will control the future, obviously. So, don't waste your life. Which is like a person who has got tremendous affection says, please, don't waste your life.

Q: Talk.

K: No sir, there is nothing more. It is finished.

Q: News, some news.

K: What the Dickens has this to do with what we are talking about? He is talking about some Soviet Union books. That gentleman has not listened at all. I don't know why you all come. Sir, don't you know, life is the most precious thing. You understand? And how you are wasting it, destroying it. We will go into this when we talk, public talks. I will go into it very, very carefully sir, please have the courtesy to listen.